Well, you ain't missing anything. I beat it last night, 100% completion. And what happens? Nothing. Oh well. BTW, you have to have all golds in all the races to get 100%, but not all golds on the licenses (thank you TT!)

BTW, to me the hardest bike to get is the TZ250RM. 2 laps at Tsukuba to pass 2 more TZ250's is almost impossible. That was the last bike I got, which of course means the last race series I was able to complete.

Definitely the TZ. Everything else is a cakewalk compared to that.

I think I'm probably floating around the 50% mark, but that's just a guess as I haven't looked at the completion thingy for ages. Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if I never did get to 100% as I'm quite happy as long as I can enjoy the bikes I like on the circuits I like.

I do remember trying that TZ test and giving up after a few goes. Very tricky.

Edit: Almost forgot, welcome to the boards nosaholic. :) ;)

Yeah, guess I could have introduced myself.

There is a trick on that TZ250RM race though. As you come up to "the tricky part" (explanation should not be needed) you have to play with your entry angle. On just about every other course, when you leave the road with anything wider than the bike's width from the road, you fail. Well, on this one, as long as you don't hit the cones, you're safe. So you have to flick the bike into that corner so hard that it almost low-sides on you. If you can do this twice in a row (which is the real hard part) you can win. I bet I raced that race probably 100 times over the last 2 weeks, and the third time I attempted this sorta-kinda cheat, it worked. Won by like 7 bike lengths.

Even using that trick, it's still difficult. You have to be tucked anytime you're not turning, you have to brake WAY late and pray the backend gets loose enough to make the turn, and drag every body panel on the bike. You also have to cut corners, by riding actually over the red/white bumpers and using the dirt to stay up straighter on the little S section after the first turn. But the most time gained is by cutting across the grass next to those cones after the chicane from heck.

I'd say the second hardest bike to get (for me anyway) was the CBR1000RR RM. 1:44 on that course was difficult for me, but eventually I got it. Of course, that was probably about the 5th or 6th bike I attempted to get, so that had a lot to do with it. The funny thing is when I rode the ZX10R RM, I had enough time left on the clock to ride a wheelie from the exit of the last turn to the finish line and STILL beat it by 1.5 seconds.

I don't know if any of you guys own a real motorcycle or not, but I do (actually I own 3). I've played a few motorcycle games and this one is by FAR the most realistic one I've ever seen. The only thing they need to work on is the stunting part (wheelies, stoppies, etc.). I mean, I know it's a game, so they have to make it easy to do tricks, but 12 o'clock wheelies are not that easy. Also, the CBR1100XX and Hayabusa can wheelie any day of the week and twice on Sunday, but I haven't been able to get the street version of either bike to come up yet. So if any of you know how to do that, fill me in, as I own a CBR1100XX and I need some cool screensaver pics for the PC!

I've gotten the street Hayabusa up, at least a couple of times...not always intentionally.

I finally finished the game yesterday. Yes, by far the TZ250 is the toughest thing in the game.

After messing around with a few hot lap/photo sessions, and going back to get a few bikes again, in different colors, what did I do? Put another memory card in and started a new game. :)

I'm around 72% done but that's about as fair as I'm gonna get because I have the bikes and gear that I want (Haga rep aside) and the rest of the stuff nor the stupid tests are inspiring enough to make me go after all gold medals. So now it will be just about getting good times.

I would have to disagree with you on the "most realistic" item. It does a good job in some aspects, but is just terrible in others. I've ranted on about the backwards braking and "the coasting to tighten up your line" mess already so I won't bore anyone by doing it again. I still think SBK and GP500 offer more realistic gameplay.

Slow1, I understand what you're saying, but I think we all have to remember this is still a game. If it was completely realistic, only motorcycle riders could play it, and it would require handlebars and an arcade-style, leanable, sit-on body to play it, with a tilting screen and all kinds of off the wall stuff. I think they did an excellent job considering the limited buttons on the PS2 controller and the fact that they have to make it useable for the general public. If it was too specific, nobody would buy it except us hardcore riders.

The game does do stuff that is significantly more realistic than the games you mentioned. This game (in full pro mode) is much more realistic as far as stepping out the backend under full throttle, rear tire skipping under heavy braking, headshake if you don't lean forward under full throttle, if you keep turning it will fall over, and a host of other "what really happens in real life" stuff. Besides that, if the game was fully accurate, you would have to turn left to go right like on a real bike, and the leaning would have to be separate from the turning (you don't have to lean to turn on a real bike). I think that considering it had to be marketed to a worldwide audience of various ages, they did a really good job.

I don't buy the "if it was too real only hardcore players would play it" argument at all and consider it the lamest excuse everytime someone uses it. I am not talking about making people have to actually learn how to ride to play the game. There is more to being a pro quarterback than just hitting a button. Does the fact that players don't have to consider most of the things a real qb does mean only non-pro players will enjoy a game like Madden? Obviously that isn't the case and is why EA keeps going out of their way to make it seem more real when in fact your are still just pushing a button to complete a pass. you don't have to make players countersteer to get that point across, as to go left if they push left when the rider moves his body he will start the countersteering motion (the Keith Code arguement against bodysteering) and that's it. It is no different from any other game. I am not talking about making a true sim (though they shouldn't advertise it as a real simulator if they aren't going to take it further), I am talking about simple basic emulation of the activity the game is supposed to be simulating. I've never (and probably never will) driven a F1 car but I wouldn't play a F1 game that controlled like a rally car and really put an emphasis on getting the car sideways. TT could have been more "realistically correct" braking and cornering wise and it wouldn't have been any harder for the nonbiker.

The things that bug me about TT aren't due to the limitations of the PS2 or it's controllers. I say the reason the game is the way it is, is because it was rushed and not given the attention it should have been. its like they just kind of threw it together to test the market. It plays too much like GT4 because it is basically GT4. That is why the crashes look so bad. Again this is something that could have been corrected without making the game any harder. And this is what frustrates me so about the game. It could be simply brilliant, because the control itself is excellent, even if it's not correct. The layout of the game is beyond a pain in the ass. I mean look at the simple things (like just being able to pick a track and race it without being in a series in TT mode) they didn't do or took out of GT4 options that should have been there (see the things in TT2 thread). just basic stuff and you can see they didn't put the full effort into the game that it deserved.

I would disagree with you about the realism of TT compared to SBK and GP500 (not that it means anything but for the record I play all racers in the hardest modes). IMHO you get far more visual feedback from those two games than you do in most of TT. It's only on some of the TT circuts that the game gives you visual ques as to what the bikes are doing (which is another big pev of mine about this game). don't get me wrong TT has a lot of strong points but its a bunch of little things along with the 2 big ones that piss me off about it and really is keeping me from taking to it the way that I did to SBK and GP500. I've played it a ton the past couple of weeks but now I'm already not really getting into any more. That's not because it's not "hard enough" because the depth of the basic game is there, but more because it's almost as annoying as it is fun. If I want to be annoyed I can go to work or call my girlfriend

I finished it this weekend. All colors of all bikes too. Which means I had to win the TZ250 four times. :wall:

BTW, I've noticed that the TZ250 is not an option on the Replay upload page.

now I don't feel bad cause I went back and got all the bikes I liked in all the colors also!!!

Yeash, I'm only at 28% complete. Guess I'd better get busy or else I'm gonna get smoked in the competition.

I don't buy the "if it was too real only hardcore players would play it" argument at all and consider it the lamest excuse everytime someone uses it. I am not talking about making people have to actually learn how to ride to play the game. There is more to being a pro quarterback than just hitting a button. Does the fact that players don't have to consider most of the things a real qb does mean only non-pro players will enjoy a game like Madden? Obviously that isn't the case and is why EA keeps going out of their way to make it seem more real when in fact your are still just pushing a button to complete a pass. you don't have to make players countersteer to get that point across, as to go left if they push left when the rider moves his body he will start the countersteering motion (the Keith Code arguement against bodysteering) and that's it. It is no different from any other game. I am not talking about making a true sim (though they shouldn't advertise it as a real simulator if they aren't going to take it further), I am talking about simple basic emulation of the activity the game is supposed to be simulating. I've never (and probably never will) driven a F1 car but I wouldn't play a F1 game that controlled like a rally car and really put an emphasis on getting the car sideways. TT could have been more "realistically correct" braking and cornering wise and it wouldn't have been any harder for the nonbiker.

The things that bug me about TT aren't due to the limitations of the PS2 or it's controllers. I say the reason the game is the way it is, is because it was rushed and not given the attention it should have been. its like they just kind of threw it together to test the market. It plays too much like GT4 because it is basically GT4. That is why the crashes look so bad. Again this is something that could have been corrected without making the game any harder. And this is what frustrates me so about the game. It could be simply brilliant, because the control itself is excellent, even if it's not correct. The layout of the game is beyond a pain in the ass. I mean look at the simple things (like just being able to pick a track and race it without being in a series in TT mode) they didn't do or took out of GT4 options that should have been there (see the things in TT2 thread). just basic stuff and you can see they didn't put the full effort into the game that it deserved.

I would disagree with you about the realism of TT compared to SBK and GP500 (not that it means anything but for the record I play all racers in the hardest modes). IMHO you get far more visual feedback from those two games than you do in most of TT. It's only on some of the TT circuts that the game gives you visual ques as to what the bikes are doing (which is another big pev of mine about this game). don't get me wrong TT has a lot of strong points but its a bunch of little things along with the 2 big ones that piss me off about it and really is keeping me from taking to it the way that I did to SBK and GP500. I've played it a ton the past couple of weeks but now I'm already not really getting into any more. That's not because it's not "hard enough" because the depth of the basic game is there, but more because it's almost as annoying as it is fun. If I want to be annoyed I can go to work or call my girlfriend

Ever played GTR and GT Legends on the PC in full simulator mode?

There is a reason GTR/GT Legends sold so few copies.

The game is to complex for the casual gamer - I have all the trappings (cockpit, wheel etc for GTR and GTL) an the game is fun, but far too compelx and real for the casual gamer.

Sony is far wiser than many others and is in the business of raking in millions of dollars... which in turn allows for the R&D for the PS3 etc.

PD is therefor also not foolish enough to alienate the huge 90% bulk of folks who are unlike "us hardcore" junkies.

TT is a great mix as it is - if it gets any more "real" and complex without maintaining a "novice" mode, they would have very few repeat sales.

Again - Sony and PD sell more GT3/GT4/TT discs in some towns than some other driving games sell world wide.

There is a reason for this ;)

RC45 you keep missing the point. I am not talking about making the game harder just making it more correct. Would you agree that there is a huge difference between a game like NFL Blitz and Madden (sorry I keep using the sports titles as examples)? Blitz is pure over the top fantasy while Madden tries to be a bit more real. Even so when playing Madden you don't have to worry about things like distance, wind, angles, timing, etc...... you pick your play, run it and when you think your receiver is open , you hit the button and the game does the rest. I have not doubt if you had to consider all the real world varibles in the game of football (or any other sport or game for that matter) Madden wouldn't be as big as it is.

All I am talking about is making the game slightly more accurate and that's it not harder just more accurate. To the casual gamer in theory all they'd want to do is hit the brake and have the bike stop and could careless about whether that is completely accurate. Given that they are easy to please, but for sure PPD are looking at more serious gamers also otherwise they wouldn't go through the hassle of adding setup adjustments (and in TT's case rider ). So why not make it correct braking wise? IT wouldn't have made the game any harder for the casual gamer. Plus that's why most games have assists and things to help those who don't get into the games on that deep of level.

anyway again I the problems I have with TT are more that the game was rushed than any consideration of balance consumer base. I'm not going to keep on this because you have your point of view and I have mine and it's obvious I'm not getting my point across

^^ Sounds like someone needs to get out and have some relaxing wind in the face ride time in the country roads.. :P

You can adjust the braking bias for the race bikes, just not the proddie bikes. And considering bikes like the CBR1100 and VFR800 have linked brakes as standard, the game is already realistic in that respect ;)

What they more accurately shoudl have done, is model the bikes after the real world counterparts with regard to linked braking for example - but anyway, TT has sevred me well, I got my $40 worth and a eagerly await the "new improved" TT2.. ;)

I can definitely attest to the linked brakes setup, as I have a CBR1100XX, and the game rides very similar to my real bike. The only problems I have as far as the way my bike is simulated in this game is that:

A) It will do a stoppie in real life
B) It will do a wheelie in first or second gear all day long and twice on Sunday
C) it does not headshake nearly as much as the game lets on
D) the windscreen is not slap dab in the middle of your field of vision when riding in the rider position viewing angle

That's about it. Technically I could say that metal only scrapes the ground after plastic on the real bike (the fairings are actually a tad bit lower than the peg feelers are factory) but that's just nitpicking like crazy.

As far as Slow1's comments about tightening a line while letting off the throttle, for the most part that is true. If you are at full lean and let off the throttle, the bike is actually going to open it's turn up. If you are not at full lean, you can lean more and get off the throttle and tighten a turn, but it is difficult to do at best. But that is exactly why this game had to be made the way it did. Let me explain.

If you ride a real bike, the only thing that applies to both vehicle operation and motorcycle riding is road rules and using signals. That's about it. A bike has front brakes operated by hand, rear by foot. Shifting is clutch with your hand, shift with your foot. Throttle is twisting your right wrist. Horn, turn signals, high beams, and starter are all operated with thumb controls. You turn right to go left. You turn left to go right. You speed up (generally) to tighten your line, slow down to loosen it. You lean to take corners harder. NONE OF THIS APPLIES TO A CAR. Also, none of this can be duplicated on a controller!

I'm sure that TT designers, being that they are GT designers, took all of this into consideration, and they know that the average gamer probably has something of the GT series, and they want to mimic those controls for their bike game. It's an easier to design thing, and easier for the gamer to use thing. Win-win situation. So you have to give up some of the real world to make the sim world work. Otherwise, the game would have been $300, with a TT-specific set of handlebars and all the other stuff I mentioned before. Now, like I said, I would have bought it anyway, but I guarantee you that most folks are not going to by a 2 foot long, spring-assisted, fiberglass body bike look-a-like that can only be used with one game and costs stupid money. But that is the only way to make it realistic.

I know that sounds far fetched, but the fact of the matter is you cannot duplicate a motorcycle perfectly on a game without duplicating an actual motorcycle controller. So TT did as best they could with what they had. Not to mention, PS2 is already at it's limits, and to cram even more stuff into this game with more processor needed to control more realistic functions, would be asking for a lot. And like I said, TT is great, so just imagine what it will be like when the 2nd, 3rd, etc. versions of it come out. GT4 is hands down the best GT ever, so just think how awesome TT4 would be (if we ever get that far).

No, GT1 is the best GT ever. They get progressively worse with higher numbers.

getting back on topic, the hardst bikes for me (besides the tz250) are winning the special machine races. thats because im fastest enough to beat the ai but no consistint enough and still weak on several tracks/sections. the 130r/motogp chicane at suzuka are prime examples of that.

One more off topic comment.. ;)

Being that Japan is the motorcycle capital of the world, and that Suzuka 8H is a religion - I am quite confident that the PD team all have motorcycle time under their butts.. ;)

getting back on topic, the hardst bikes for me (besides the tz250) are winning the special machine races. thats because im fastest enough to beat the ai but no consistint enough and still weak on several tracks/sections. the 130r/motogp chicane at suzuka are prime examples of that.


I didn't have too much of a problem with most of the challenges (save for the TZ250's, of course), and trust me, I, along with my "rider" feel your pain when it comes to Suzuka Circuit! It's the last Gold Medal I need to win for My licenses...

I thought getting the Yoshimura 1135R was difficult. I didn't really figure out how many hours I spent just doing license tests. I would play for like fourty-five minutes, get fed up and do something else. But it was almost a week of doing this off and on.

If you are going to make every bike ride the same what is the point of having different bikes then? I own(ed) a number of bikes and NONE of them had "brake balance" only a front and a rear. If you have a bike with linked brakes and it's in the game great for you, but it's not for me.

And again you guys are putting to much into the "what can and can't be done" in a game. Nosaholic your example is overkill, you don't need a $300 controller to make the game a "decent" simulation. and you don't have to simulate every inch of real life riding. The PS2 controller has enough buttons that all the major points (steering, braking,acceleration shifting and rider movement if desired) and can be handled without a problem and I don't think anyone has a problem adapting real life controls handled by foot to a button represented on a gamepad. If so then all games (football, golf, fishing, soccer, etc...) would require "special" controllers not just a bike game

You guys keep saying the average gamer wants this or would do that, but I bet the average game doesn't want all their race games to play the same, otherwise whats the point of getting a different game. I mean if your F1, Rally, Touring Car, NASCAR, waverunner, etc... games all played and controlled exactly the same what is the point? So to say they "had to make" line management the way they did is complete BS. If you want to play a rally game you learn to drive the car sideways. For F1 you learn about the corner speed, etc.... so for a bike game you can learn to tighten a corner with the throttle. I am not talking about an ULTRA sim just basic fundamentals. All the stick & ball games don't actually play the same though the execution of them button wise does. NBA Live doesn't play Madden even though to release the ball you tend to hit the same button. This isn't a question of the limitation of the PS2 or any other format. It's about priorities and the priority unfortunately (IMHO) tends to be on flash than substance.

Braking quite simply could have been made more correctly and all the average gamer would have seen was that the bike stops when he hits the brakes and those who want a little more would have that (which is why games tend to have a arcade and sim mode) That is nothing new and other bike games have done this. It would not have made the game any harder for them and more enjoyable for those who want something with a bit more real depth

In real life countersteering for most is something being done without thinking about it. I ride 99% at the track and I don't think about it at all even though I am very aware of it. Anyone watching who doesn't no a thing about "countersteering" wouldn't notice because all they see is my body going left when I turn left and right when I turn right. They don't see that even though my body goes left this initial motion pushes the bar right. For a game (and TT, SBK and GP500 already do this) all that needs to be done is have turning controlled "visually" by rider movement. In the replays of these games you can see countersteering happening. This is not hard to do.

Again I am not talking about an ultra sim (despite the fact they bill it as the real riding simulator) just more accurate representation of biking. My biggest problem is that if everyone keeps saying how great the game is they will never address these issues and they will just focus on fluff. If they do that I could careless how many sequels we get of it because I'll just go back to playing SBK 2001 or GP500 again, which I'm already about to do.

I've had the game for 2 weeks, and purchased the Prima guide at the same time. It helped only in the fact that it described in detail the progression of the game:
1st: licenses
2nd: challenges
3rd: races

What really helped me was learning the courses with different bikes.
With attempt after attempt after attempt and so forth (i.e. bronze, silver, gold), you could get a good feel for what you were doing correctly.

Still, Suzuka has me beat by 3 tenths of a second in that Super License Graduation Test.

Welcome to the boards GMan. :)

I thought getting the Yoshimura 1135R was difficult. I didn't really figure out how many hours I spent just doing license tests. I would play for like fourty-five minutes, get fed up and do something else. But it was almost a week of doing this off and on.
Was the Yoshimura 1135R a Challenge , or is it a Race/Series reward?

I'm at work, and don't remember if I have that just yet. I've completed all of the Challenges (incl. all colors), but only 12 of the 23 Race Series, and I'm still only 39 of 40 license Gold Medals (Darn Suzuka!).

Thanks, Dom.

I've been a little leery about joining boards, simply because some atmospheres are less than savory. I felt compelled to join this forum after only 3 days of adult behavior!

Thanks, Dom.

I've been a little leeery about joining boards, simply because some atmospheres are less than savory. I felt compelled to join this forum after only 3 days of adult behavior!

Welcome to the boards Gman. I know exactly what ya mean. Seems to be a great bunch of guys here that i believe to be older racers? so you don't get alot of this "Fanboy" crap like ya do at other boards. Dom does a great job here and i have a feeling this place will get packed soon :) Have noticed alot more ppl signing up this week.

Wizrad,
It's a refreshing change, compared to other forums. Yes, I'm older than 30, and yes, I'm an avid gamer. Respect for others, and their views, is often ignored.
Btw, nice avatar. I miss my 05 softail...

Cheers for the ego massage, Wizrad. ;) Seriously though, a forum's only as good as it's members and I know for sure that if it was just me talking to myself things would get boring pretty quickly. :lol:

Cheers for the ego massage, Wizrad. ;)

lol well your welcome, but dint mean to make your hat size change lol Just stating a fact. Alot of ppl start a message board and then just let it go. You on the other hand get involved and treat ppl with courtesy and respect, and for that I commend you sir :)

I don't know about which bike was the hardest to get. but for me the hardest time was the New York track on the Suzuka bike series. It wasn't even the whole track just that 1st turn. must have spent 4hrs on that because the bike would react differently each time I approached it. pain in the ass now doubt

OK,

After playing again last evening, the Yoshimura 1135R is the Super License Gold reward. That's why I still don't have it.

I'm only at 83.1% completion...

The tz is a killer. I am going to try to do the "trick" I have gotten so close to beating it, but you have to ride SO hard it's very difficult to stay on the track for two laps.

I also agree, that the 1000RR RM was very difficult. But check this out, I put in a really good lap like. Granted it was on the 20th time. But i REALLY LIKE THIS TRACK. I turned a 141.129.

Welcome to the boards badassr1. :) Best I've managed at Valencia is a 1'41 too - some other guys on the board are getting '39s and '38s. :eek:

Valencia? That's a great time! That'd be at least a few seconds quicker than what's needed to get the bike.

GMan, I sometimes take a look at the demo for the test and try to figure out exactly where I'm loosing the most time. I then do some free run laps and concentrate, mostly, on those particular sections. Sometimes it takes me like twenty laps, but practice always makes perfect.

GMan, I sometimes take a look at the demo for the test and try to figure out exactly where I'm loosing the most time. I then do some free run laps and concentrate, mostly, on those particular sections. Sometimes it takes me like twenty laps, but practice always makes perfect.

Yeah, I tried that demo/practice thing a few times. That worked in going from just passing the test (Bronze), to seven or eight improvements (one being .016 seconds) to get the Silver. The next night, same routine. After only about seven hours total over 3 nights, I'm .306 seconds from the Gold.

I got so frustrated, I just started racing cups and series. Hopefully, this will be enough practice. I think racing Suzuka against competitors is helping my lap times. And as an added bonus, my completion percentage and bike inventory are both on the rise.

oh man i think buy far the hardest was the tz250. I bet I tried 200+ times before I beat it. What a challenge. VERY FUN BIKE THOUGH. Well worth it.

oh man i think buy far the hardest was the tz250. I bet I tried 200+ times before I beat it. What a challenge. VERY FUN BIKE THOUGH. Well worth it.

It took countless attempts to get the first TZ250 '03, two attempts each for the following two. Then I made the unwise decision to let the blood flow back into my fingers, killing my momentum. An hour later, I had all four colors, and was literally howling in victory...:dance:

Well, you ain't missing anything. I beat it last night, 100% completion. And what happens? Nothing. Oh well. BTW, you have to have all golds in all the races to get 100%, but not all golds on the licenses (thank you TT!)

BTW, to me the hardest bike to get is the TZ250RM. 2 laps at Tsukuba to pass 2 more TZ250's is almost impossible. That was the last bike I got, which of course means the last race series I was able to complete.

You have to use manual tranny mode to get the TZ250. You have to make sure to keep it geared down and throttled up in the corners, or it bogs down and won't spool up very fast. That being said, I still havn't gotten it and don't care too much if I don't. I'm not that concerned with the TZ class races, honestly. Unless you get some wicked cool bike for winning them?

-J

The TZ race lets you win the last of the 5 "special machine" bikes, so yeah, it's nice to have it. The TZ was the last bike I had to race to win, which allowed me to race the TZ race, which let me beat the game.

The funniest part is, it took me at least 100 attempts to get that bike. I went over to my buddies house, who had the same problem (last bike to win) and I beat it in 5 attempts :lol:

I still haven't won that friggin TZ250. Lots of aggrevation.

volthause - with the tz250 challenge, i found the form was very curical. ive one form that i cant win the challenge with, but, another one thatll win it before the finish line.

btw - 85.7%, all golds, and all 5 suzuka 8 hour bikes :)

i just got done with all the races, just have a couple of challenges to finish up :D

I'd say the TZ125 & 250 are the hardest to get. LOL, I wont the 250 by a front wheel after 143 attempts. Now, to get all golds on the license tests. I have all gold except for 3 silvers. That damn "slalom" race wit the chincy ass cb1300 super bol is way hard to get 16.402. I have 16.535 but that is as fast I I can get, LOL.

the Slalom is easy! Just keep it pinned and hit a rhythm. I found the TZ250 hardest, but that still wasn't mega hard. 94.5% and 33 golds, working on the rest. ONly started geting all golds last week.

Hah I forgot guys sorry: 79.83% all golds except for 3 silvers all special machines and all races complete! How the hell do I get to 100%? :eek:

the challenges count for +/-1% a piece.

I lost the game (bloody auto save and people turning my ps2 off) @ 70%. Im back up to about 10% now !!!